Neil Dudley: Ladies and gentlemen, welcome to the Pederson’s Farms podcast. We are so excited you’re here. We appreciate you joining us. And we look forward to sharing these conversations with thought leaders from our industry. They’re going to paint a picture from every perspective – consumer, customer, vendor, employee, and peer – that I think is going to be super valuable, and we’re really excited to share. So, thanks for tuning in. Remember don’t tune out, and grab life by the bacon.

Hello. I appreciate you coming here. I know your time is not free to you, so we want to add value. That is the purpose of the Pederson’s Farms Podcast, and we’re going to explain some more of that. But right now, I got to be honest, I’m selfish, I want everybody and their dog to come to KetoCon. So go to ketocon.org and use the promo code bacon for $50 off your three-day pass. If you’re in the area, if you just want to become a part of the keto community, please come to this. Now, the reason I say I’m selfish is Pederson’s will have a booth. We’re going to be serving bacon, sausage, ham. We want the opportunity to show our products to you. We’d love to give you a better understanding of what we do and how it tastes. I believe if you give our products a try, we’ve got a really good chance of you becoming a fan, an PNFer we call them. And that is partially why all five episodes this month are focused around KetoCon. I’m interviewing, we’re talking to, we’re having a conversation with people that will either be speaking at KetoCon, founded KetoCon, working the Pederson’s booth at KetoCon. So, I think it gives you a really good opportunity to see and understand and hear a little bit before you even have to buy the ticket of what value is going to be there. So, thank you so much for just giving us that opportunity. Again, we’ll put all this info in the show notes, but ketocon.org, use bacon in the promo code or discount code to get you $50 off your three-day ticket. I really appreciate Robin giving that to us, and I hope you use it. Now, my name’s Neil Dudley. I’m the VP of Business Development at Pederson’s Farms, and I host the podcast. I’ve been in the industry for 20 years now, maybe a little over, and I worked my way up from a QA tech position to the C-suite. I mean, I really only got in the business because my best friend since kindergarten was made president of Pederson’s and he said, hey, will you come to work for me? And I was like, sure, I think that’d be fun. So now, all these years later, we’re still doing it and we’re still having fun. And I think it’s a great time for me to share these conversations and access to thought leaders, business owners, entrepreneurs, people that are making the food you eat. They are totally a huge piece of where your food comes from. And these stories are what I believe you have the right to know, understand, and get to hear. So, thanks for listening. If you love it, tell somebody, share it on social media. We need the support. We need for people to hear the story, I need your help getting it out there. If you didn’t like it, feedback is always welcome. We need that. We want to make it better. We want to make it valuable to you. So, if you want to hear what KetoCon’s going to have to offer, keep listening. I promise these people will add value and give you insight into the keto diet, the keto lifestyle, and many other things, everything from carnivore diet to intermittent fasting, to eating nose to tail, to how you keep an event alive throughout a pandemic where it’s pretty much shut down for a couple of times, a couple of years. Anyways, keep listening. Let’s do this thing. Thank you so much. 

Okay, everybody, it’s the Pederson’s Farms Podcast. We’ve got a really awesome guest. If you’re not familiar with Brian Sanders, you got to go check him out. Google his name, check out his business sapien.org, or at least the website, and also his business Nose to Tail. We’re going to talk about all those things. Hi, everybody out on YouTube. We’re definitely filming this so we can get it on all platforms. Brian, thanks for being a guest on this show, this conversation. And I’m sure I missed some things there. So, tell everybody in five minutes who you are, what you do.  

Brian Sanders: Wow. Well, I’m happy to be here. I’m glad you came over in person. Yeah, I am all in this health space. All I’m trying to do is get good food out to people, good health information, making the Food Lies film. That’s a good place to start to search for me, just search for Food Lies and I’ll be there. 

Neil Dudley: That’s a good point. Check him out on Instagram at Food Lies, Food.Lies, that’s right. 

Brian Sanders: That’s where I do most of my stuff. 

Neil Dudley: We could do a whole 30-minute conversation on just that one thing, and that doesn’t encompass all the stuff you’re into, but that’s a great place to start. So, what is this Food Lies all about? Why should everybody go watch it? When’s it going to be? I heard some sneaky thing that maybe you’re putting out a preview of some sort somewhere. 

Brian Sanders: Oh yeah. I’m going to put out a preview at KetoCon. We’re both going to be at KetoCon July 8th, and we’re going to show a little teaser, exclusive. 

Neil Dudley: What does it take to- is that going- How would I get to come see that? Can I buy a ticket, or is it kind of exclusively for people in the community that are aware or that you’re working with?

Brian Sanders: Yeah. So, we’re just going to show it at KetoCon. I’m speaking at KetoCon, so to see it, yes, you’d have to be there. And I love KetoCon, I support it. So yeah, buy a ticket. I don’t have any-

Neil Dudley: Buy a ticket to KetoCon, come to your speech, and that’s when you’re going to show it.

Brian Sanders: Yep. My talk is called Exposing the Trillion Dollar Agenda Against Red Meat. And I’m not done with it yet, but I think there’s a coordinated effort for about a hundred years against red meat, and there’s a lot going on and there’s a lot of money involved, a lot of big interest involved, worldwide organizations, even WHO. And so yeah, we’re going to show a little teaser of the Food Lies film. And you asked yeah, who I am, my history, it really does kind of revolve around the Food Lies film. So, I started five years ago. I started making it.

Neil Dudley: I was going to ask that question, when did you start? So this is five years of toil already.

Brian Sanders: It is, it is. And I started about three years before that getting into health. So, my personal story really quick is, well, I started as a mechanical engineer. I had a couple of careers, and I was just going about my life. All of a sudden, I’m 30 and I’m just turning into a dad bod. I have all these different conditions, chronic overuse. I have like acid reflux. I have all these little things going on, and I’m just kind of turning into a dad, even though I played sports my whole life, all this stuff. And at the same time, I lost both of my parents. So, it was crazy because I was too young. I mean, they’re a bit older than normal parents, but I mean, I’m 30 and I have no parents. So, they kind of just went their whole life with the same thing that happened to me where they just did what the government told them. We ate the food pyramid style diet. I grew up in Hawaii. We were eating lean chicken, rice, vegetables, pasta, low fat yogurt, 1% milk. We’re doing the whole thing. And we’re making our own food. We weren’t going to McDonald’s. Like, that was a big treat to go out once a week, if we’re lucky. We’d have one meal per week if we were lucky. Everything else was homemade. Everything was low fat. And they just had these chronic health issues that the doctor didn’t even tell them. And then I look back and like, oh, well they had pre-diabetes, and I was headed that way as well. So luckily, I caught it around 30 years old at that time, made a few changes in my diet, dropped 15 pounds of fat, just changed my life, got rid of all my chronic conditions. Like, I don’t even take an Advil. I don’t take Tums. I don’t take anything anymore. I haven’t seen a doctor. I haven’t been sick in seven years since this all got going. 

Neil Dudley: I think you nailed a certain thing there. Like Tums, upset stomach is the thing you can see disappear immediately. I clean my diet up, eat better. You don’t need so many of those medicines. I can’t say I haven’t been sick for seven years. That’s an accomplishment. But it really speaks to metabolic health and eating right and paying attention to your health as a medicine. 

Brian Sanders: It is. And sleep is involved, and I do still exercise, and there’s other things to it, but the food is the foundation of it all. And I just made some simple changes. I’ve never tracked calories. I’ve never tracked macros. I’ve never done any of that. But it all changed once I sort of understood nutrition. The mainstream understanding of nutrition is so backwards. And if you just, you got to spend a little time learning about it and listening to podcasts and reading a few books. 

Neil Dudley: When you say podcasts, what is the name of yours? 

Brian Sanders: Peak Human. 

Neil Dudley: Peak Human. So, folks, you’re obviously a podcast listener, so you should go check out Peak Human. There’s lots of good episodes there. I’ve been listening to them just in preparation for this conversation, have really enjoyed them. I’ve learned stuff. I’ve learned more working this podcast and interviewing people and trying to get educated myself. I’m selfish; in a way, this whole thing is a selfish thing for me because I want to be better. I need this education. I need these relationships. So really, check out Peak Human. It’s a great podcast. There’s lots of good information and good guests. 

Brian Sanders: Thank you for that. Yeah. 158 episodes. It’s been- while I’m doing the film, it’s my focus. 

Neil Dudley: What got you into filmmaking? So, you said engineer, that doesn’t paint filmmaker to me. How’d you get down that path? 

Brian Sanders: Well, now that I look back, I grew up with a camera in my hand. That was at back in the day; I’m 38. So, I mean, back when I was growing up, there was like the first camcorders that you could really look at on a- had a screen and that you could- and I remember when I was about 12 with my brother and cousin making videos, and we could edit them on the screen. We’d have to rewind it and reshoot it. And we were just doing that since maybe I was 12. Then I actually started making a lot of video projects in seventh and eighth grade with the same guy that’s doing the film with me now. So, my friend, we were taking the classes, doing the video projects. He went to film school. Now he’s a very accomplished filmmaker and has a production company, and he has his own health journey. And so, we’ve teamed back up, and now he’s making the film with me. So yeah. I had a kind of full circle. Like I always wanted to do film, but then I went into mechanical engineering, but then I learned a lot about- I think that helped me figure out how to look at things differently. Like,  looking at a root cause approach. 

Neil Dudley: It’s great. It’s your journey. It’s all those pieces make the whole, and probably you don’t get the same whole without all the different pieces. That’s kind of what’s beautiful about food. It is very important about food. You might think, oh, well that seems like a good food, but are you considering all the pieces? It’s just the thing we consider, we debate heavily in our boardroom at Pederson’s like, oh yeah, well that ingredient is a good thing for production. Well, it’s not a good thing for the body. Or it’s a great thing for the body, but it’s almost impossible to use in production. So, you have, as a company in this space, we have to- there’s a lot of work inside staying true to your values and ethics as well as trying to come up with really just get better all the time, lean forward. I mean, you’re probably experiencing that with Nose to Tail. I love the idea that you have a burger with all the organ meats in it and spleen, you don’t have that in all of those other options. Why spleen? 

Brian Sanders: Well, it is all the organs, you need them. Each organ has different nutrients, different vitamins and minerals, and well, I spent some time with our ancestors, well, analogs of our ancestors. These hunter gatherers that are still living how they used to live. I went to Africa last year for Food Lies and they ate all the organs. They eat the whole animal, nose the tail. And so that just kind of reinforced my love for using the whole animal.  

Neil Dudley: I love that people, Americans even I think are jaded, we’re spoiled in a way. We’ve got access to so much. So, farming and ranching gets kind of a negative connotation with our- really in our country, partially in my mind, because nobody has the experience with it. Like nobody, very few people were raised with animals on the farm, on the ranch, like I was. So, we have a disconnect in understanding, then your opinions get developed thanks to those experiences. And if you don’t have that experience, you think eating animals is just unethical, mean, and all those things. Well, you go get in those groups of people and they eat them nose to tail. They respect them immensely. It is a part of the circle of life. You respect that animal, they’ve gave their life to give you nutrition. I mean, without those things, the world doesn’t spin, at least in my estimation. What do you think about that statement or those thoughts?

Brian Sanders: Well, that’s so true. I don’t think veganism would ever exist if we weren’t removed from nature. And I actually just put out a post recently that nature has no business plan. Nature’s the only thing in the world really that isn’t trying to make money. It’s just trying to exist and stay in homeostasis. And yes, it has a circle of life, and it works. Everything else that humans have created has a business plan. We have business plans. We’re trying to do things right and give people good food and make a small amount of money at that because we sell them good food, not processed food. So, everything has a business plan except for nature. Nature just moves in its beauty, in its natural states. And so, all of the other things in this world are basically trying to remove you from nature. This is what I was thinking. I don’t know if I’m getting too philosophical or too out there, but you think about it. It’s like, well, why do people, why do vegans exist? It’s because they didn’t grow up eating animals and being part of the process. And I like this story. 

Neil Dudley: You’ll hear an argument. Let’s just debate it because I’m listening to this. I think in the business I live in, I have to understand there’s a group of people that are here to remove our business. Animal agriculture, they want it gone, abolished, done with, never to come again. So I just own that. Okay, cool, need to understand that perspective. Maybe that is the best way, and I’m totally crazy and I just flat don’t understand it. So you think about that from their perspective. What about some cultures that didn’t have meat? You’ll hear the argument made, maybe even in Primal Uprising or something, I heard, in that book, I was listening to it. Keith Norris and his wife, her name’s Michelle. Anyways, they were talking about there are some cultures that didn’t have meat. Am I dreaming that up? Is that something you’ve thought about?

Brian Sanders: No, well, there are no cultures that don’t have animal products. There are some cultures who choose to not eat a lot of meat and they’ll just use milk and eggs. I guess India famously, well, not all of India, but I forget if it was north or south, but they will use milk and eggs, but they will not actually try to eat the flesh, a lot of them. But there are no cultures-

Neil Dudley: Do you think that is religious or actually-? 

Brian Sanders: That’s religious. And this has been studied too. Weston Price went around the world and studied ancient cultures about a hundred years ago. And there were zero vegan cultures. And there’s many other studies too. There is the World Ethnographic Atlas, something you can look up and they studied a hundred, oh man, I’m going to get this number wrong, somewhere around 150 cultures, maybe up to 180, and there was no plant-based cultures. They all relied on animal foods. And there was only about two that were near plant base, but 73 to 76% of them relied mostly on animal foods. So, 73 to 76, I forget the number again, mostly on animal foods. So, there are no vegan cultures. Veganism is a new experiment. And it’s only because we invented vitamin B12 supplementation and some other supplements. And it’s a very new thing that hasn’t ever been tested in multi-generations because it’s so new. We don’t know. And I meet a lot of people through my work and people know me just doing the film for the past five years, I’ve had events, I travel around. I’ve met so many ex-vegans that have ruined their health, ruined their life. And yeah, they basically tell me all their problems and how bad it’s going. 

Neil Dudley: Well, it’s a dynamic thing. I try to feel that emotion that comes along with somebody that has a pet and that’s the only experience they have with an animal is a pet. And that can feel really painful, to think all animals are pets, all animals should be pets, all those things. And another thing, I want to circle back real quick, you kind of quoted a source there. I think that’s so beautiful. Like I love you as a source. You’ve spent five years, eight years if you count the three prior to that, in your own journey, in your own exploration of these things. So, you’re not speaking off the cuff about this. Now everybody really needs to go validate what I’m telling you because you can’t just take Brian’s word for it. I mean, I do because I’ve researched him. I trust him. I know what he’s done. I know the time he spent. He’s not out just to create conspiracy theories and stuff. He’s just reframing the truth you’ve learned over these times. I’m looking so forward to this film. So, this is not a show about hating veganism. It is probably a show about saying our true perspective on it. 

Brian Sanders: Questioning it. Well, yeah, no, I’m trying to question it really. 

Neil Dudley: So out of curiosity, who would be like- do you have a friend that’s a vegan or somebody else that’s in the vegan space that you think is a good person to debate and question and have these conversations with? 

Brian Sanders: No, I don’t know any personally. I think I met a few people like playing beach volleyball that seemed okay. And they’ve done it just short periods of time. And then they just, they always drop out and they are like I feel tired or the nutrient deficiencies come in. But there’s a few more famous ones and some of them reach out to me online or have little arguments online. And yeah, I’d love to debate them. I actually did at a food conference. I debated, well, it was “vegan versus carnivore,” even though I’m not carnivore and she wasn’t vegan, but we did do a debate on stage.

Neil Dudley: So that’s like real debate, isn’t it? Somebody has to pick a side, now debate it, learn about it, and defend your position. Whether it’s really yours or not, there’s a lot of value in that, I think.

Brian Sanders: Well, there is. I have had to learn all the vegan arguments over the years. And so yeah, I do know where they’re coming from. So, I think what really is going on is it’s a lot of surface level arguments that sound good. So, they have three main arguments. It’s the nutritional, the environmental, and the ethical. And so, on the surface, all three of those sound like they win. You know what I mean? If you just asked like a fifth grader, like is it bad to kill animals? Like yeah, it’s bad. Is meat bad for you? They’re like, oh yeah, I heard it’s bad. You know what I mean? Like they just get fed this stuff. And then the mainstream media is to blame. There’s so many big forces. That’s why I’m doing a whole presentation about it. But if you just go by what you’ve heard on the news, what you just heard just on social media, everywhere, it does seem like veganism is the answer, but then when you get beyond the surface level, you find out that it’s not. So, it does take some investigation. 

Neil Dudley: Well, that’s right. I’m lazy at times. I don’t want to investigate. I don’t want to do that work. Well, look, folks, I think what Brian’s saying is he’s encouraging us, you, me, anybody listening, to do the research, just invest that time in yourself and your health and your longevity and your happiness, because really that all ties back very closely to the things you do and the diet and all those different things. Now you’re saying your presentation is kind of focused on red meat. Why red meat specifically? I kind of run alongside red meat with it in the pork category. And then I just think listeners are going to be interested in chicken, all those- So why do you pick red meat?

Brian Sanders: Well, that’s the one that’s been demonized the most. So that’s the one- 

Neil Dudley: Is that because it’s the most popular?

Brian Sanders: I haven’t thought of why that is. It’s actually weird because it’s the most beneficial to the environment. It’s the most healthy for humans. And sometimes I think that they just have to just go make your head spin and just do the opposite. So many things in this world are the opposite of what’s reality and what like different government organizations and big institutions do seems to always go to the opposite of your interest and they always have their other interests. And a lot of it’s just keeping people in line too. I feel like we’re just like a big preschool, and these big institutions are just trying to get people in line and make them behave, stuff like that, which makes sense because that is what big governments kind of have to do, where it’s like, well, that’s what’s always happened, since the pharaohs and like in ancient Egypt, it’s like, all right, well, we’ve got to control the people. Anyway, the red meat thing is, well, it has the most saturated fat. Well, it doesn’t have the most saturated fat. You could have- any meat can have a lot of fat in it. But they just try to blame it on, well, they call it a carcinogen. They call it like a Class two carcinogen with the WHO. I have a whole story about that. I interviewed Dr. David Clarfield, who was part of that WHO panel in 2015 that decided it was a carcinogen. And he said it was a whole bunch of vegans and vegetarians and that they ignored all the science that he brought to the table. He’s not by any means carnivore or anywhere in our world. He’s just some random USDA PhD. And he’s just a reasonable guy. He thinks we should just be eating a balanced diet. And he’s like, hey, there’s no evidence that red meat is bad. There’s evidence to the contrary. And yet they just ignored him. They threw away all his studies and then they just had this agenda. So that’s where it started. That’s where this whole red meat is bad for you started in a big way is that 2015 decision by the WHO, which he even said was basically orchestrated to do that. It was- so you can go back further and say like there’s just, the movement has been against red meat for many years. And I think it just, it seems bad. Like if you’re unscientific, if you don’t really know things, like it’s the first thing I could come up with is why when we thought red meat was bad because for all of history, we thought it was good, but in the late 1800s, there’s a woman Ellen G White that had these visions who was a religious person and thought the Garden of Eden diet was best and it was just natural. So, there’s this perception of just like, oh, it’s just natural. And it’s just good to eat plants. And it was around the time when men were probably alcoholics, they’re beating their wives, women didn’t have as many rights. And she just had this idea and other people had idea that red meat just made men violent and angry. 

Neil Dudley: Wow. I’ve never even thought about going that far back and getting into that mindset. 

Brian Sanders: It’s like this primal thing. It’s just like red meat. It’s just like what- Like right now a lot of women don’t like red meat. It’s just they’re like, oh, I’ll take a salad or I’ll take chicken. It’s like red meat is this manly primal thing that-

Neil Dudley: Infiltrated our culture in that perception. And I think you’re doing the great work. Pederson’s as a company needs to come alongside that, amplify it when we can. I mean, everything can be kind of debated. I watch this guy named Jesse Itzler. He’s a great guy. He inspires me. I think he’s super successful. He is a vegetarian, vegan, maybe. I don’t know, but I know he doesn’t eat meat. Well, that’s Jesse’s journey. That’s cool with me. I still learn a lot of stuff from him. So, I think there’s stuff to be learned from Brian no matter what diet you follow, me too. But we’re also trying to say, okay, let’s question this, let’s put some information out that’s been heavily audited, so you’re going along with maybe another perspective against what maybe WHO or somebody that is really more about controlling you than really helping you. I even think it might be the health industry in a way. 

Brian Sanders: Well, yeah, I mean the sick care industry. Well, nothing is set up for individual health. People need to realize that. We don’t need to get too crazy about it. I like to get crazy about it. I like to research and figure out what’s going on in the world and how we’re kind of just put in our little preschool. But it’s not, yeah- 

Neil Dudley: Yeah, totally. And there are a lot of other people like you, like Dr. Shawn Baker’s going to be on the show. We’re launching all of these kinds of June episodes around KetoCon, speakers that you’re going to be able to hear at KetoCon, Robin, the founder of KetoCon, is going to be a guest. We talked her into doing an actual discount to the show. So, if you’re listening to this, go put bacon in the discount code and come listen to Brian’s speech for a little cheaper than the next guy. I mean, that’s going to be the value you get from listening to these podcasts and coming and just being a part of that community. The whole KetoCon community is valuable and interested. And I love or I just kind of want to explore that idea of this preschool we’re in. Like, how do you see that being the truth? I have some ideas, but I’m curious about yours. 

Brian Sanders: Well, I didn’t used to think this. Before you look into somethings, even health, health kind of opens the door when you realize that, oh, this food pyramid’s kind of upside down. And then you start learning more about what’s going on. Well, just food pyramid is a good example of this preschool we’re in. They say, so scientifically, animal foods are superior nutrition-wise; they have more vitamins and minerals that are more bioavailable to us. They have more protein. 

Neil Dudley: Real quick, what is bioavailable? 

Brian Sanders: Well, it is if our body can use it or not. 

Neil Dudley: So, it is easy for our body to grab and use.

Brian Sanders: Exactly. So, you could say, oh, well, spinach has this much iron in it. That’s actually not sure though. It’s not usable iron to our body. And the spinach has different anti-nutrients like oxalates that can block the absorption of iron. So, you’re not getting what’s on the nutrition label. But with meat, you’re getting way more because your body knows how to use that. 

Neil Dudley: Let me ask you another question. I’m sorry. I’m jumping you around a lot, but this one’s really important I think. What do you say to this thought? Because this is what I think when I start kind of getting in these conversations, I start thinking, yeah, but I could Google something and find it on the internet that says all of that iron’s bioavailable. So how do we reconcile that skepticism thanks to the internet saying- Really the internet supports every position there ever is on anything. 

Brian Sanders: That’s true. Yeah, you can find anything. You could find- we’re talking about Alex Jones. You can find lizard people that, yup, the internet says lizard people are running the government. That’s the problem. The problem is- but you have to go to the source though. So when I’m talking about this nutrition science, this is not debated. This is not debated. So, I mean, actually I even found a vegan website warning about all the anti-nutrients in plants, and they warn about oxalates and they say don’t eat too much spinach. So, this is what you have to find. You can’t just find some random vegan site where they’re just spewing nonsense and they have no sources, but you can find- like you have to find either the real source or what’s great is when this vegan site, they are saying points contrary to their opinions in a way. So then, you can know that it’s legit. 

Neil Dudley: Almost just kind of close your eyes and think logically, does this really make sense that these things, that this world has been like this for so long, and now it’s all just a bad idea? 

Brian Sanders: Yes, exactly, that red meat all of a sudden is bad, even though we’ve been eating at since the beginning of human history, and I’ve interviewed tons of archeologists, paleoanthropologists, all these researchers who do this, and they’re all in agreement, and they’re not all meat eaters too. They have no dog in the fight. I love it when people have no dog in the fight. I try to be that way, even though like I have this idea that meat is good and that processed foods are bad. And I always say those are my two biases. I just don’t see it going any other way. Other than that, I’m open to things. If someone says, oh, coconut oil is bad for you, I’m like I guess, I mean maybe. Yeah, if you tell me it, I’ll listen and we can investigate it or maybe- I’m open to anything. But my high-level view is meat is something we’ve been eating for all of history and that it’s what humans thrive on and that processed foods are the problem and these are the new things that have come in. And other than that, I don’t have super strong opinions about diet and all this stuff. I just know that those are these fundamental things. So, I try to be unbiased like that. So, I think you can tell when things are either true or false when you read online. The vegans can even be unbiased, they’re like it’s actually not better for your health, but I prefer to do it because I don’t want to harm an animal. And I’ve seen vegans like that, and I respect that. Or they say, you know what, plants do have defense mechanisms, they do have anti-nutrients, you need to watch out, you can’t eat spinach and kale shakes every day, like I did. I had a little problem. I kept eating them, especially almond milk as well. That’s an oxalate smoothie, and I just ate oxalates for days and days and years and years on end. And now I don’t eat that stuff anymore. But it’s not that I’m saying they’re all bad. I’m not saying you can’t eat spinach. But if you eat it every single day, that’s not natural. That’s not how humans existed. So, I like when vegan sites will admit that and be like, okay, watch out for oxalates. So this is we’re talking about iron absorption, we’re talking about spinach, all this type of stuff. So, this is in the literature. This is not debated. It’s debated if you’re on a vegan blog, that’s what I’m saying. If you’re telling people how to figure this stuff out, you have to go back to the literature, and it’s not debated. So, we know that meat and dairy and eggs have the highest bioavailable protein and nutrients. This is not debated. No one has ever debated this, unless you’re just a lunatic vegan on Instagram. Like this is- and then we know that the absorption of iron say in spinach or all these different plant foods are not as good. We know that there’s precursors to vitamins, like vitamin A is like if you get it in a plant, it’s not retinol. It’s in its precursor form. 

Neil Dudley: Man, you just are killing me, man. You know this stuff so well. Folks, if you’re watching it on YouTube or you’re just listening, I’m telling you, Brian is just sitting here in his chair telling me all this stuff because he knows it. I mean, it would be kind of like me talking about how you raise cattle. I mean, I just know it; I don’t have to reference something or get notes and make sure I’m touching on these things. You just know this stuff because it’s just part of your conscious. It is part of what you do. I mean, we’re not even going to get to touch on sapien.org, but I think people need to check that out because I don’t want to leave this conversation without talking about your, I don’t know I’m going to get the word wrong, gyms or these locations you’re putting up. Maybe it’s one. Tell me about that a little bit because I know there’s going to be people within driving distance of this who will want to be there. 

Brian Sanders: Absolutely. My whole life has just turned into this. That’s why I’m so obsessed with it. I read about it all day. There’s about a hundred books over there that I’ve read about this stuff, and yeah, I’m a bit obsessed. But I have a whole kind of umbrella thing going on called Sapien, and yeah, we’re in Austin here and we’re trying to bring the online community in real person, in real life. Like I think that’s the end goal, is with humans, as we eat well, we do all these things- 

Neil Dudley: Well, that’s why I want to be here with you to have this conversation instead of do it on Zoom. We could easily have done it on Zoom, but I’m going to spend four or five hours driving to come have this conversation in person. I love where you’re going with this, that humans are made to be together in person and talking to each other and feeling each other and catching all of those body language hints that are part of our communication. 

Brian Sanders: It is so true. And people don’t do that anymore. And the past two years have been really rough on that too, even though, I’m still going to meet people in person. I didn’t change my life, but some people were, and they made it hard for people. But what humans need each other to thrive and we need to get together. And that’s what we’re doing with this community center, basically in Austin. It’s a, I don’t even know what it’s called, a health and wellness center. We’re making it up really. It’s a new concept. 

Neil Dudley: I love that – making it up. That’s what you got to do as an entrepreneur, make it up and then make it valuable. 

Brian Sanders: It is. And we’re trying to open by KetoCon. Actually, if people come, we’re going to try to do an event July 7th the day before and have a little kickoff to our facility. But yeah, I mean, we’re having coworking, we’re having events, we’re having an outdoor gym, a sauna, cold plunge, barbecue area, fire pit. Like this is what humans need. Like that’s kind of the last pillar of human health other than like the food and some sort of movement and getting outside and vitamin D and getting sleep. And then it’s just human connection and all that. That’s like the last thing that humans need. So, we’re just facilitating that and we’re going to get it out to different cities. I’d love to hear from people what city we should go to next. I mean, obviously, we’ve got a lot of work to do, and we’ve got to start it here, but we want to have this in different places. So far, we’re looking at somewhere in Colorado. 

Neil Dudley: If somebody is interested in coming once you get it open, where’s going to be the place they can learn about it? Is it sapien.org? 

Brian Sanders: Well, Food Lies. Mainly yeah, sapien.org, you can get on the email list there and then I’m just not good at updating all the different websites and stuff. 

Neil Dudley: Dude, you’ve got so much. I mean, I’m sorry to call you dude. Sir, you have so much going on. It is impossible. Listen, I’ve got to guess your team’s not 50 people or something. 

Brian Sanders: It’s mainly me.

Neil Dudley: It’s mainly you. So, I would say y’all check out Food Lies. I’m interested in seeing what you build. I want to know, okay, cool, how would I know to go- where would I go? Where’s the location? What’s the actual process for going and being a part of this community? 

Brian Sanders: Well, yeah, I mean, not everyone can do it in person. If you’re in Austin, it’s going to be in east Austin. I’m in east Austin and we’re going to do it. If we get this property, it’s East 7th Street. Or just jump on Food Lies and find me. And also I just realized, just to close that loop, I was talking about the different- we got into the weeds about bioavailability and all that stuff, but really what I wanted to say about the health stuff and the government is we know that, we’ve always known for all of history, that the animal foods are nutritious for us and that, well, processed foods, that these are these new foods that are causing the problems. And that’s just simple. Like people know that. I was in Africa in the middle of the Bush with these Hadza or Mussai. And they’re telling me I don’t trust the food that sits on the shelf. They are like we eat fresh milk and meat. 

Neil Dudley: If it doesn’t spoil, I don’t trust it. 

Brian Sanders: And they know that. They know that. And that’s what I was saying before as well. These big systems are trying to remove you from nature, they’re trying to just like take you away from these natural instincts. And so, my big point with the government, the health organizations and their recommendations are they’re saying eat less meat. They’re saying don’t eat red meat. They’re saying cut down on your bacon. Don’t eat all that fat and you need to eat 7 to 11 servings of grains. You need to eat all these processed food products, because if they don’t have fat in it, then they have to process them and put other stuff in it. So that’s just my main point is. They don’t have- it’s so obvious they don’t have your health interest in mind. This is not even debated science. If you look at the nutrition of even bread, that’s does not have nutrition in it. Like it is empty calories. And we know animal foods do have nutrition and they’re telling you the opposite advice. So that’s just how I know it’s wrong. That’s how I know most stuff is just kind of bogus out there with these big institutions. It’s simple. It’s science and they got it backwards. 

Neil Dudley: Brian, it has been a great conversation. I know we’re going to keep talking after turning the record button off, but we’re trying to keep this into a shorter timeframe. I always have a tendency to go hours on end about these things because that’s education for me and it’s so interesting. But everybody, if you’ve listened this far, thank you so much for your time. You’ll never get it back. I know it’s been valuable to me. It’s been a fun journey, just hearing Brian’s story, getting to know him, understanding his expertise. So y’all, be ready, be watching for Food Lies. Go check out sapian.org. If you’re close to Austin, be sure and come join their health and wellness center and be a part of that, if nothing else, for your education, to meet good people. I don’t think you’re going to find yourself in a dangerous situation, or you’re going to obviously bump into some people that might have different viewpoints than you. Hey, that is actually part of being human. It is part of the fun of life too. It is part of how you get better. So, I just to encourage you to keep listening to the Pederson’s Farms Podcast. Brian, anything you want to tell everybody before we sign off? I mean, check out Nose to Tail. Any kind of parting shots?

Brian Sanders: Well, I say eat densely, move intensely. That’s my little catchphrase these days. People like to say in the mainstream, just eat less, move more. And I think that’s stupid because they’re like, well, eat less of what, or you know what I mean? Like this doesn’t help. Everyone knows that and it’s not helping anyone. So, what you need to do is eat nutrient dense foods and you need to move intensely I think is a more accurate way to exercise, throw some weights around, sprint, climb a rock, do something like that. 

Neil Dudley: You’re not like a muscle bodybuilder kind of guy, but moving weights around, lifting heavy stuff, it’s valuable. I know it is. It is for me. I put a huge amount of weight on the bar just to lift it up off the rack, and just feel what that’s like. It’s almost a mental- it almost shocks your nervous system to do that stuff. And I think that’s good. Cold plunges, I’ve really enjoyed, cold showers. Anyways, folks, we could go on forever. Thank you so much for listening. Brian, thank you for your time. I’m really excited to see all the people at KetoCon. If you’re listening, come to KetoCon. Use the code bacon, get a little discount on your three-day ticket and come see us. Come see us at the Pederson’s booth. There’ll be other fun stuff there. At least one of them’s going to be bacon.

Brian Sanders: I love it.

Neil Dudley: Yep. See you there. 

Hey, everybody. Thank you so much for listening to this episode of the Pederson’s Farms Podcast. It’s been a blast bringing this to you, and I sure hope you enjoyed it and found value. If you did, tell a friend, share it out on social media, hit that subscribe button, or go check us out at pedersonsfarms.com. We sure hope you do. And thanks for being here.